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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Sep 30, 2009 1:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Rhino

For the last few days, friends "close to the source" have been telling me about the plug being pulled on Rhino . The article below underplays it, from what I have heard . As far as record companies go, I though they did a pretty good, and dedicated job .
What does this mean for the "Vault" , and the release program ? And with the shows showing up on "Wolfgang", is this somehow related ? I haven't seen any official word, or even unofficial word on this .
I have asked a friend who knows people who work ( or used to work...) at Rhino, if they can shed any light .
Any one else heard anything ?;csid2=844&fid1=41516

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Poster: and improved! Date: Sep 30, 2009 3:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

News: Grateful Dead - Jerry Garcia Biopic in the Works
For better or worse, Grateful Dead front-man Jerry Garcia is set to get the biopic treatment. The production team behind Election and Little Miss Sunshine are reportedly putting together a big-screen adaptation of Garcia’s early years b...Read More

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Sep 30, 2009 3:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

It would be nice if LMS directors Jonathan Dayton and wife Valerie Faris would direct it. Their background in music videos put them alongside musicians, and undoubtedly allowed them to see what makes musicians tick.

This post was modified by DeadRed1971 on 2009-09-30 22:39:04

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Sep 30, 2009 11:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

I don't know why they just don't go back to the old original idea Phil had, namely digitize and put everything up for anyone to download. They could of course sell the downloads and people would not have to hassle over what they "wish" the Dead would release, plus people would not need to contend with the shoddy customer service, late delivery, shoddy packaging ect..

The "vault" I really wish I would be able to hear someday are Owsley's "Sonic Journals" wherever they are. The man recorded everything at every show he worked according to him, including the support bands. A couple of those bands, the Allman Brothers Band and Flying Burrito Brothers, have already seen official releases culled from his recordings.

This post was modified by SkyDawg on 2009-10-01 06:27:02

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Poster: Arck Date: Oct 1, 2009 7:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

Well it seems that Wolfgang's Vault will be doing this with it's collection. 15th May 1970/late show is not a bad place to start. Not quite sure how this is going to work legally though. Apparently 15th May 1970 is in the vault so, surely, the Wolfgang's Vault version is either a copy of the master or a different master (i.e. from the Fillmore East crew)? I'm tempted to get it. It seems a lot more straightforward downloading it than screwing around with call centre ordering processes.

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Poster: veblen Date: Sep 30, 2009 2:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

looks like the article was pulled, at least I got an empty page.

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Sep 30, 2009 2:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

Maybe I did something wrong ( I am a computer caveman still).
Just Google "Rhino Records", and "news" , is how I got it .

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Sep 30, 2009 2:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

Doesn't appear as if an announcement has been made, however Rhino looks to be owned by Warner Entertainment and that they have instituted huge layoffs which will affect cash flow to Rhino.

If Rhino shuts the doors, I'm certain their "maintenance" contract for some of the vault materials will revert back to the band and they will probably name another management group. Rhino did not own any GD materials, were simply the managers of certain parts of the vault.

Wolfgangs has nothing at all to do with the Grateful Dead. They claim ownership of the tapes made at Bill Graham owned or promoted venues. When Graham died, Clear Channel bought the rights to the tapes and memorabilia in Grahams estate. They were then sold to the Owner of Wolfgangs Vault, who apparently has survived at least one attempt to return the items to the bands.

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Poster: veblen Date: Sep 30, 2009 3:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

this could get interesting, this is from the 25th though from other sources it sounds like the news is still good:

and this from variety via billboard:

"Rhino Records laid off 30-40 employees on Thursday, according to a report. Jobs were cut from all departments, according to the report. In a statement, the Warner Music Group-owned label said it would evolve into an entity that "handles WMG's global digital catalog initiatives, film, TV, videogame and commercial licensing, and name and likeness representation for legendary artists." Note there was no mention of physical product in that statement. Rhino has long been among the best at releasing high-quality physical packaging and box sets. But that was then.(Variety)"

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Sep 30, 2009 3:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

I got messages from 2 Warner people I know . Not to much to add though . "All the content remains intact ", was one word I got .
The lay offs were done, apparently , in an extremely cold corporate way . Basically, "Your services will no longer be needed , goodbye ".
I suppose we will hear something from the Dead front . You guys have this covered far better than I . Thanks .
Sorry for the first bad link ,not only a "caveman", but a clumsy one at that .

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Sep 30, 2009 4:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

man, if the "box set" sales have declined steeply (presumably for all the bands they manage releases for), i cant imagine how poorly the GD sales are. I cannot see how they can make a cent releasing stuff easily obtained on torrents - especially charging what they do (which is not a knock on them, just a statement).

the days of CD's are gone, gone, gone. just like the vinyl i used to buy up until the early 80's. And it is now happening very very fast. You'll barely see CD's for sale within two years.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Oct 1, 2009 6:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

Dead on with this. What began as a slow erosion of CD shelf space has now become a full blown collapse. I'd 2-3 years is going to be about it.

I really thought the Dead was onto something a few years back with the download series, but there was so much more that could have been done with it. Hell, they could even set it up to where people could choose between whole shows and compilations if they wanted to.

I don't mean to sound cynical but when I saw the $100 Winterland '77 box announced I just laughed. The writing is on the wall for high dollar box sets. Most Deadheads I know in my age group (40s) already have hundreds of shows and are not going to drop that kind of coin on music they already have. However, clean up some less commonly circulated stuff (or stuff which now makes the rounds only in poor quality) and make it available for download at a reasonable price, and I think people would go for that big time.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 1, 2009 7:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

i dont think you are being cynical at all. i am in full agreement. totally agree with the full access download idea - i think that is the only way the GD/Rhino can sell GD stuff even close to profitably. I think both GD and Rhino vastly overestimated what their commercial viability really is/was. I dont know if they really thought shutting down the board downloads on the archive was going to help or not, but my guess is that it didnt make one iota of difference monetarily. And now with Wolfgang's out there ready to go.... (i suspect there is NO way they are going to shut him down - too expensive to even try at this point and they have already been beaten once)

Just basic supply and demand. The supply is virtually endless and the demand is most certainly NOT growing (staying even MAYBE.) The GD needs to see the writing on the wall, and in the immortal words from Aliens..... "Game over, man. Game over!"

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Poster: veblen Date: Oct 1, 2009 8:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

after a slow start rhino did begin a release a quarter or so schedule which moved the community from arguing about them to a arguing about their selections and the compilation/complete show debate.

I am also a very big fan of the download series; and I find myself listening to those shows as much as dick's picks. I would like to know why rhino nixed the series along with their overall anti-download stand. I just think in 2009 a record company would/should be moving towards downloads rather than away from them. It is beyond me that the road series and other rhino releases are not available to dl. At least they have continued the dl option for the pre-rhino releases.

I think they would be farther ahead if they had created a site and on a regular basis released shows in groups of five or ten. The groups could be released in multiple ways: across eras (1 or 2 per decade); based on themes; regions/cities/venues; by holidays; firsts and lasts; sor full runs like the road series. The ideas for grouping are endless.

Then allow for multi-downloading options (e.g., single tracks, build your own compilation and complete shows). This would make fans of all eras happy along with giving the choice of full show vs compilation.

It would give people not familiar with different eras an easy way to do tastings along with stirring debate, interest and SALES in and out of the community.

If the folks restoring/upgrading soundboards can turn-around shows at such a clip why can't rhino?

can one of you marketers explain rhino's use of the bonus disc?

I always love this note:

"Looking for the bonus disc? Sorry, but we've run out of the bonus disc that was included with early orders. All orders will include the standard 2-CD version of this release."

I don't understand the rationale of having it for early sales only and when it is removed the pricing and desire for of the product is put into question.

I could see selling the bonus disc on and not in the stores or do something with the pricing, but don't just have it for early orders. Maybe I am missing something...

one "positive" of rhino appears that it takes the band away from doing all of that work, which can and has lead to strife.

what was the initial rhino contract for, ten years?

This post was modified by veblen on 2009-10-01 15:51:03

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 1, 2009 9:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

agree with all you wrote. is it any wonder so many people go to other sites to download these releases without the high sales price, limited availability of bonus discs, crappy customer service, and the fact that discs/boxed sets just take up so damn much space in a room??

i dont wonder ;)

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Poster: veblen Date: Oct 1, 2009 10:00am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

thanks...strange, but I hear bowie singing: "is it any wonder..."

"one "positive" of rhino appears that it takes the band away from doing all of that work, which can and has lead to strife."

I should have added that having Rhino and not doing it all themselves has allowed them to avoid those internal conflicts and to PLAY again. Just because it isn't my cup-of-tea doesn't mean that I am not pleased to see them back together and many people enjoying it.

here is rhino's press release back in 2006:

Though I don't see the length of the "landmark agreement" mentioned. Guess it is time to search the forum since I know it has been noted in the past.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 1, 2009 10:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

yeah, i certainly dont blame them a bit for wanting Rhino to handle all that "stuff." God, at their age and what they have worked for, it is time to take a break from all that marketing crap. what they love is to play, so play on..

the recording industry got into the digital download system far too late. they hung on to cd's a bit too long (imho). And if they were into it, they never found a way to maximize their profits doing so. just last year a $230 million loss in the recording industry - never mind the downturn over the past 5 years or so. They can blame Kazaa, pirateers, etc all they want - but they dropped the ball long ago and never felt the urge to really pick that ball up again. You ever wonder how much of the $.99 per download from Ipod is going to the recording industry?? I do! and i will bet it aint much :)

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Poster: cush212 Date: Sep 30, 2009 7:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

Tis ther truth younger twin Brother. My depat, and job were eliminated last spring, Came in on my birthday (4/6) to see an empty cavern of what used to be the Music dept!


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Poster: wineland Date: Oct 1, 2009 9:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino RIP!?!

On your birthday?!? Damn, that's messed up. Sorry to hear about it Cush. I hope you've recovered and are back on track.

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Poster: and improved! Date: Sep 30, 2009 2:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

but its so easy EVEN a caveman can do it!!

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Poster: dr. flashback Date: Oct 2, 2009 3:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

I agree with about every thing said by all you guys.
Great posts. How ya' doin Dire? Glad to see you still
keeping things honest and lively round here!!

Well, interesting isn't it? Next month will be
4 years since they pulled the plug here on the
SBD's. So who won?
Here we are, Dead fans, still loyal to the music,
still loving it, listening to it. And, if you're
like me, you've found other sources for the SBD's.
We're still collecting it, and thank God Charlie
Miller is still remastering it (hey BTW Charlie -
did you ever get back from your honeymoon??)

Who had a better model for digitalizing and
distributing the music - us, or Rhino and the
GDP? I'd kinda like to think ours is a pragmatic
and above all pretty democratic model. We've
basically got the vault now. If you don't have
a certain show, chances are you can contact
someone in the community who does.

I do also agree they should have gone with
Phil's idea. As it is, now they're sitting on
a pile of product that they don't know how
to market and can't sell. Don't get me wrong,
I like the Winterland 1977 box idea, though
$100 is a bit steep - economic times being
what they are. It's just too little, too

Who are the winners here? Obviously WE are.
We can still stream to our heart's content
here at good old LAMA, and torrent the SBD's
for our collection. And also, clearly
Wolfgang's Vault is the winner. Call it good
old American ingenuity. Wolfgang had the better
model - give people what they want, release lots
of new shows every WEEK practically, and give people
a choice of how to download, along with lots of
fun info, T-shirts, posters.

As many here said, selling CD's in a store - those
days are about over, at least for rock and roll.
Here's what GDP and presumably Rhino never got -
when hundreds of thousands (how many of us ARE
there anyway??) of people would rather take the
time and effort to download, buy blank CD's,
burn the CD's and in many cases painstakingly
remaster the music - all without caring for
slick packaging and "store bought" quality -
then a revolution has happened. The dinosaur
is brain dead, the body just hasn't fallen over
If GDP (who will I guess re-obtain the vault release
rights) hopes to stay afloat at all, they're going to
have to pretty much do what we wanted all along -
Digitalize it all, release it all for download as
quickly as possible and charge a minimal fee.
By saving $$$ on no marketing and packaging costs,
they might just make a profit. There are still big
chunks of 1968, 1969 or 1970 that doesn't circulate
and even I would pay to be able to collect.

Sure, some of Wolfgang's shows aren't the best quality,
but that's not their fault. At least they're letting
us old geezers HEAR this great live music before we're
too old or dead. Who's gonna buy a live 1971 show in
the year 2025 ?? Some corporate minds would rather
keep music locked away forever if they can't make
enough money off of it.

It's a simple case of the consumers/fans evolving
faster than the artists and recording industry.
We invented and grew our own new way of distributing
music - without money or profit involved. Cheers to
us, and hopes that GDP can survive and catch up
with the rest of us before their vault becomes an
economic albatross that they can't get rid of for
any price.

Set your chickens free! And long live the music
of the good old Grateful Dead.

Dr. Flashback :-)

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 3, 2009 7:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

ahhh - the good doctor!! Things are going quite well with me as I certainly hope they are with you as well. Great to see you posting here!!! dont be a stranger :)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 2, 2009 9:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

Thanks one and all; posted the question above when I could only get access to the most recent posts, and then found all of this afterward...

I would still love to know the "data" for DEAD related boxed sets vs DL series, etc., etc., etc. I wonder if it is such a small market that it's a drop in the bucket? But if so, what do we make of the 10k Fillmore sets selling out so quickly? Isn't that more than a drop?

I am just curious as to what makes money vs what doesn't, although as one and all point out above, if the hard copy market is simply "fading away" (ie, CDs), then perhaps this whole biz isn't about the DEAD at all...

Good to see you doc! Yep, Dire got married, but she lets him off the leash now and again.

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Oct 3, 2009 7:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Rhino

I still think that releasing video at a reasonable price would be a better business model than a newer,slightly better, audio of shows we all have.

I have to say I'm glad that 4 years after Black Wednesday that the boards are still here to stream. To be able to access any show at work or while traveling without needing to haul around my DVDs is a luxury.

Hey Now Doc how's it hangin'?? ;)